Blueliner CEO Arman Rousta joins Shahab Salemy, VP Product and Design at Dick’s Sporting Goods, in a conversation about the impact of digital transformation in product development, supply chain, and sports marketing. With a decade under his belt in various tech and product roles at Nike, which he helped transform into a digital first company, Shahab shares some best practices and war stories from some of the world’s top sports product brands. The old Columbia University Men’s Soccer teammates also discuss the Messi Effect and what it might mean for soccer and sports marketing in the U.S.
The video can be viewed in its entirety below, or accessed through the following, unabridged transcript.
[Note: the transcript was automatically generated through AI. We apologize for any errors or distortions.]
ARMAN ROUSTA:
All right. Welcome everybody to the Mout Project sponsored by Blueliner. This is Arman. It is Wednesday. Yes, September 13th, 2023. Losing track of time. I’m really honored to have one of my best and oldest friends, Shahab Salami, who’s been on an amazing journey that we’ll hear about today. He’s currently the VP of Product and Design at Dick’s Sporting Goods after a decade-plus stint in various roles in product development and tech and innovation at Nike. Shahab—what’s up, brother? How are you, man?
SHAHAB SALEMY:
Good, good. Nice to see you, Arman. It’s always fun to talk to you. I feel like every time we talk, I learn something, so it’s always a pleasure.
ARMAN:
Likewise, likewise. You know, we, we, we obviously took very different paths and we’ll, we, we’ll, I want to come back to that later, but you know, since graduating and spending, what, three years together at Columbia, playing on that field here we are. How many years later? Let’s not <laugh> what? 20? I lost track. It’s at least 25 years, right? Yeah,
SHAHAB:
Yeah.
ARMAN:
Where, where, where are you sitting right now?
SHAHAB:
So I’m down in Austin, my home for the last year. But yeah, just sit in my home office, you know, have my favorite Jordan 11s behind me, as always.
ARMAN:
Good stuff. Good stuff. So is your role with, with the, you’ve been at for about a year plus now, right? Yeah,
SHAHAB:
Yeah. A year plus. Been there about yeah, about almost 18 months or so. So I managed pro digital product design, which essentially kind of the backend work of everything that’s a digital product into our ecosystem. So everything from consumer facing things like the app, the website to tools that you’ll see in the stores of whether you’re interacting with it as a consumer, digital tools that we have, digital walls or tools for our associates in the stores, all the way to things that we use internally. So you can think about our internal website, our systems, our, what we use in the supply chain. So they’re, we manage probably a portfolio of maybe a hundred plus different products across the ecosystem. And that’s kind of our like, broader kind of mandate. And then on top of that, we’re like, we kind of manage and help co-create more of a transformational story as is going from really being a traditional sports retailer to evolving and be more of a sports related company.
And that’s a bit like how we serve our athletes. We talk about ‘consumers’ as ‘athletes’, and–instead of just providing product recommendations–we try to provide more of a service layer, to actually help them become better athletes. We’re early on the road, we have a few initiatives out in the marketplace but that’s where we see the future going, which is a much more integrated version of holistically serving that athlete of which product is a huge element of that. But the journey into product and what you do once you get the product, I think, is also interesting.
ARMAN:
That’s amazing, man. That’s really amazing. How long, I mean, I know you’ve been at only for a short time. How long has the company made this an initiative? I know with Nike, and we’ll get to that, it was, it’s been a long-term initiative. And how old is that initiative?
SHAHAB:
Well, I think it’s, so the, the, the vision of the company changing to becoming the greatest sports company in the world is only a few years old. So like that statement that was put out and publicly acknowledged is only a few years old. I think the work of how to get there is around that timeline. So I’ll use an example. You know, a few years ago we opened up a door that we call the House of Sport. And the mandate of that door was build a store that if it opened up across the street from us, would put us out of business. It wasn’t necessarily to scale that concept. It was more of like, well, let’s just see what would happen, what would you do? And so constraints were off. It’s like Cisco creativity was launched. What was built was a 200,000 square foot basically arena of sorts that has everything from climbing walls to half a football field to what we call the house of cleats, which is like every cleat you can imagine completely integrated.
And it became more of an experience for consumers to come in and to really engage in the whole journey of sport. And so whether you come in there to shop or you come in there ’cause you’re interested or you come in there because you want to actually try and play, it became an environment which to do that. And it was really fascinating because not only was that we, we learned a lot, but one of the biggest learnings we realized is it was actually exceptionally profitable to do this. So we went from that one store concept to, in the next several years, we’ll open up a hundred of these around, it won’t be as, not all the platforms will be that large, but the idea will still be the same, which is these environments that you can come into and experience sport in a different way.
And that’s one idea. And you could think about how we could bring that concept into a digital world. You could see how you could bring that concept in partner environments. You know, we have a platform called Game Changer that, you know, if you have a kid that plays baseball, you’re probably familiar with it, where we basically record youth baseball Yep. Sports, and provide that back to the team and to the parents. So they can track their kid, they can help schedule their games, they can watch their games. So if you’re 3000 miles away, you can see it. What’s fascinating about that platform is in a single month we have more data on baseball games than the history of M L B. And that’s just the, yeah, that’s the, the power of like youth sport and this idea of how much information we can generate. And there’s such a desire from both the per the, you know, the kid who’s playing the game, wanting to track their stats, how am I doing as well as parents in the ecosystem wanting ’em to support that place. So when we talk about sport, it really starts dimensionalizing what that means. And so these are, again, a couple of examples that over the years we’ve been going to, and it’s like they’re all little pieces of the puzzle as we go on this journey, but it’ll be a long journey. It’s not a, you know, this is very much a, you know, a a wave of transformation of the company. But exciting to be on.
ARMAN:
That’s extremely exciting. And I’m, I definitely wanna put an asterisk on that with you for game Changer. ’cause As you know, we have basement sports and it, there’s a lot of touch points, you know, where we have things like stats and streaming, and it’s more for really the in-home environment. I call it more like disorganized sports as opposed to like organized youth sports, like families bringing that concept into a house. And but I, and I don’t wanna take up this call with that, but I definitely want to put an asterisk and talk to you another time about that. ’cause I think there’s I love that vision and I completely share that concept. And I, I think about in other retail experience is how we see so many retailers fearful of, you know, Amazon and what these big online retailers, you know, have done to, to challenge at every level every type of more standard brick and mortar retailer.
And the answer always comes to mind. It’s about the experience, right? That you could have in the store that you can’t have if you’re solely buying online, or obviously it could be integrated, but there’s something that happens when you get into that little mini rock climbing wall or the experiences you talked about that it’s hard to replicate through augmented reality. I mean, we can try and put on headsets and that’s, I know, that’s part of the, the roadmap I’m sure for you guys as well. So amazing man. Amazing. So let me backtrack with your career, ’cause a decade at Nike, right? We’ve gotta talk about that a little bit. Nike, you said, you know, you talked about it a little bit in our pre-talk being like aiming for digital first to become a digital first company. Do, do, do they think, and do you think that they achieve that? Is that aachi? I mean, obviously it’s always waves, but Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, yeah,
SHAHAB:
I mean, I think that it’s I think directionally moving forward, yes. I mean, I think it’s a little bit, and I’d say this candidly of, you know, when I think about how technology plays a role in company’s journeys, there’s essentially three types of companies that you kind of think about their world of technology. There’s the digital natives, you know, Apple’s, Amazon’s, Googles, or the like, like they don’t really talk about a digital strategy. They, that is their strategy. It’s like how they do. And so it is the, it’s how they compete and how they differentiate. Then you have individuals who realize that technology is as much a partner of everything that you do, as much as merchandising is, as much as product is, as much as sales as everything else. And it’s seen on par because you realize the power that it can provide.
And then you have companies who still probably look at technology as it and kind of have more of a servant kind of leader kind of relationship with technology. That third chapter is the death zone. Like if companies who don’t appreciate that technology is on par with everything else they’re doing, and in some cases it is their value proposition, you’ll ultimately die a slow death and maybe a fast death depending on the industry. And the rea reason it is, is because it is su such this idea of how much technology integrates in everything we do, and it’s integrated in all the things we do is as real in the consumer space, as is in the business environment. So Nike realized this, and if you think about like the history of, you know, Nike, Nike’s gone on many waves of innovation and it has a great spirit of innovation and a change, and I have nothing but respect for the company.
There’s, you know, they’ve been, even when I was there early days, you know, there was almost 12, 13 years ago, there was a lot of digital platforms that the company’s working on, but they were very siloed in how to use this technology to help this experience. Over the last probably five, six years plus, it was more saying, how do you think about technology across everything we do and start integrating it? So this notion of whether you’re a footwear designer and you have an idea, starting in a digital environment has a lot of implications and benefits. How you deal with your, you know, your manufacturing partners and you can move to a digital environment really speeds the time of innovation. And once you get into your supply chain and how do you use technology, both track your product and make sure you have the right product in the right place completely elevates your game and obviously in the consumer.
And there’s a lot of elements. And so I think Nike’s done a, a great job of thinking about all those areas and really moving that. The challenge of any company that sits in the middle is because they’re not native. It is not the first thing that comes up, right? If you were to take an executive at Nike a few years ago and you’d say, tell me what it means to like, bring a product to market regardless of what function they’re in, they could tell you that. But if you were to ask them, tell me the technology that enables that, it would’ve been a challenge today. That’s different. If you’re executive Nike, just, I’d say if you’re an executive of any company that’s in that second brand, you have to, technology has to be a language that you’re willing and capable of speaking because it’s just as important those other elements.
So that’s why I think it’s the evolution, not only like a company like Nike, but many in the middle eventually won’t have this conversation. Hmm. Right. There’s this, like, this word digital transformation I think had a time in place. I think companies who continue to use it are on the early side of the curve because we have transformed. It’s not about a digital transformation anymore. If you’re doing that, you’re well behind where you need to be. Now it’s more of like, how are you utilizing the technology and integrating it more thoughtfully across the ecosystem, which is really the power, this siloed approach, which I think is how companies used to work is is also very challenging.
ARMAN:
Yeah, no, that’s interesting. ’cause Language is always changing and, and you know, like I know in your title and some of the history, it was, it was that like, hey, part of the digital transformation team at Nike, and so how do you, what, what, well what’s the next level of language? Like how do you describe what you do if it’s now past, you know, into that next stage? I mean, it’s just,
SHAHAB:
Well, I think, I mean, I think the word that, you know, this idea of, you know, transformation is not some that, that the single word is not gonna go away. And how you transform and kind of evolve and innovate is critical. So like, when we think about, I think about what we’re doing at, we don’t say we’re digitally transforming. You know, we talk about there’s this kind of evolution of transformation of the experience we’re bringing to the athlete. Technology’s a key piece of that, right? But it’s not something that we don’t lead with it for many reasons. One, because that’s something about where it’s mentioning before is like if we said, oh, we’re going through a digital transformation, it’s kind of, I think it’s a little bit historical way of thinking about what we’re doing as opposed to we’re trying to move forward. And I’d also say not every company needs to be at a moment of these huge inflections.
Like sometimes you just wanna do what you’re doing just a little bit better, right? And, but the idea of having thought and process of how you want to get better innovation should be at the heart of every company’s strategy in some capacity. So for us, you know, at is a different perspective. Like, you know, Nike, you know, when they, right when I was kind of leaving, going through what they call the consumer direct offense, this idea of being more thoughtful around taking a bit more ownership of their supply chain, opening more stores, shutting down some of their wholesale accounts because they’re trying to lean up, I think was a very viable strategy. And that’s what a lot of what they thought about. Since then, they’ve actually reopened some of the wholesalers appreciating the need to partner through that. But like I commend any company who’s willing to take some chances and to continue to try and elevate and evolve because, you know, the only thing we can’t do is stand still, right? There’s, there’s no you know, you’ll never win by not moving forward.
ARMAN:
Yeah, no, that’s, that’s well said, that’s well said. Is there I’ve got a few other topics here, but before moving on, specifically from your, your, your role at besides, you know, game changer and this amazing like concept store that you said is now looking to expand any other kind of trending or upcoming or current initiatives that you can talk about at?
SHAHAB:
I mean, not much that we can probably talk about, but I think, you know, it’s hard to not have a conversation about anything innovation and not talk about like, generative AI and like the, the work that will, you know, fundamentally transform. I mean, when we think about, you know, I don’t think I would say something that, you know, probably thousands are not saying right now of it’s the most exciting technology that’s, you know, comes since the internet. And some would argue even more exciting than the internet. And so this journey of how to really partner and use the technology and be thoughtful in a way that’s going to feel in some ways seamless, but all in other words, safe is something I think we’re all thinking about. And so whether that’s, you know, this idea of like the end of search and moving to a new way of search, so how we think about getting product, or if it’s a way of how you train individuals, or it’s a way of how you link systems in the backend, I think it’ll, over a period of time will fundamentally change everything that we do.
I think we’re just at such an early place right now that the best thing that I think whether it’s Dick or other companies can do, is really have thoughtful experimentation. And so I think that’s an, an area that’s very interesting. We’re spending a lot of time on it. And you know, I think if any company’s not at least thinking about it or having some folks dedicated to, it’s probably amiss what the future will be. It’s you know, if, if I was if I was smart enough to know that I probably would be here right now, but yeah.
ARMAN:
Well, I mean, like you said though, it’s part of that same transformation conversation in those buckets. It’s like that’s one of those forefront items that if you’re not even talking about it, if you’re only talking about it, you’re already a little bit late. But to be dedicating resources to working on experiments and, and in-house and with partners certainly makes sense. So let me ask you this, from the standpoint of, you know, working with partners, and obviously you guys are creating your own and acquiring companies and building your own in-house, but you’re also, I’m sure there’s a, a vast, you know, partner network including pro Nike and other great brands. Any, any advice or recommendations for people that might want to, you know, hey, how do we work with? What kinds of things are they looking for, maybe for, maybe for smaller brands? We know obviously working with Nike and big brands is gonna be natural, but how do smaller sports related companies, organizations maybe think about, you know, a couple of best practices to possibly? Yeah.
SHAHAB:
Well, I mean, I think so. I mean, formally, I mean, we have a fund, we have a small fund that we launched this past year. That, so there’s actually an environment by which if companies are interested, you know, we have a team that reviews the opportunities we integrate with that team. And so there’s an environment which we do invest in early stage companies and think about that we, similar to many corporates who have similar types of vehicles, our strategy is not to get return from that investment, right? We’re not investing as investors, we’re, we’re investing with the idea of how can we help support those companies going forward and ultimately kind of integrate and help them in an ecosystem that works for us as well. So I think as you, as companies approach, and I think like, you know, I’ve done a lot of business development in my past at many companies.
I think when you’re dealing with a corporate, I think really having a sharp understanding of what their investment strategy is, is critically important. Because there are companies who will build funds and they’re doing it to drive return. It’s a very different partner experience. You’re looking for different things from them. They’re looking, looking for different things. For you first a company who’s like, we’re here because we an early stage, you know, investment to acquire. Like when I worked in medical devices, most of the investments for in that direction that ultimately you’re using it as an advanced r and d arm and you’re kind of saying, we’re not ready, but you’re ready. Eventually when you’re, when you’re kept one or two milestones later, we will, if everything’s working we’ll, most likely acquire you. And that’s been like the history of medical device industries to grow through acquisition in many environments with a company like or in our world, it is finding that balance between an area that maybe is not our area of expertise, but could be directionally innovative or candid could just solve an existing problem that we’re having.
Because it doesn’t necessarily have to be something that’s so front facing, it could be very back facing. And so, like, you know, I was like, when I was at Nike, we invested in a company called IT Select that was working on really about like demand planning was their tool. And they’re using, you know, AI and ML tools to basically become smarter in demand planning. They had a lot of other customers. Nike just happened to be one of their customers. We learned a lot. We invest and ultimately we acquired that business. Why? Because we we’re like, you’re doing something we want to do and we, we want to advance that to your direction for us. So wasn’t, it was a problem the company had initially was a supplier, became an acquisition target and were brought in the same thing I could see happening. Companies like, where again, so it’s, I think the key is to work your way into whatever you’re doing, find that business partner within the business that is focused on that area Sure.
And get connections to them. They will usually be very open to express the areas they’re interested in. And it’s not about the long-term strategy, not really disclosing a lot as much as disclosing the needs. If you feel you can solve that need, then the conversation will naturally begin. And then different companies have different vehicles in which to do that. So whether it’s, you know, for us, we can invest, we can obviously, you know, partner on A P O C, we can just monitor, you know. So that would be my kind of like macro advice.
ARMAN:
Yeah. No, that’s great advice. And, and would, would you think, I know this may not exactly be your area, but would you kind of apply the same type of, of advice for a company not necessarily looking to get acquired or sell their technology, but just like a pure supplier into like the C P G? Like someone’s got some new sneakers or some something innovative, some clothing that has some technology built in or something? Yeah, yeah.
SHAHAB:
I mean, we, we do that. I mean, there, we’ve looked at companies where ultimately the, the question is we’re not gonna, we may just become that has become our part of our merchandising strategy, right? And so, and we have, obviously we have a huge merchandising organization that’s constantly looking at kind of what should be our assortment, what brand should we work with, how should that come to life? Part of, I mean, not, I won’t use names, but there are some of those companies that we have looked at from an investment standpoint. But ultimately the end goal may be we’re just gonna bring them into a merchandising environment in our store and have an elevated experience with them. ’cause It’s something that we think about what they’re doing that’s really interesting and innovative. And whether that’s to, ’cause we think we can sell a lot of them, or whether that’s, because we think it’s an interesting inroad to have people come to our environment to test that product.
Which we know if you get, you know, people into your environment, you have a much better idea of converting them. And that could be digital or physical environment doesn’t have to always be in store. So there are those elements, I think, you know, any, there’s very few companies that can do it alone, you know, and then the larger, the more complex you, you become, the more you appreciate the need to work with partners. You know, obviously we, as amongst everyone else has huge vendor relationships, but I’m, I’m talking about more partnership relationships and has a lot of, you know, opportunities and problems. And there’s a lot of really innova, a lot of innovation on the side, I think could make sense for us. But I don’t think, again, I’m saying, I don’t know if it’s a, it’s by definitely is not a one size fits all.
I think it’s, I think to your point of also, and not, I’m sure most of your entrepreneurs and folks that listen appreciate, like, ultimately they need to do what’s best for them. And so it’s a little bit of what are you looking for from the partnership? And whether that’s dollars or advice or distribution or, you know, whatever it may be, or customer you know, finding the people have the right match of what you need is by far your most important element. ’cause If that doesn’t work, it, it’s never gonna serve the company if you’re constantly pulling in a different direction from where your partner wants you to pull.
ARMAN:
Yeah, no, it’s, it’s gotta be balanced. It’s gotta be a two-way, a two-way street. And so listen, thank you for that and I, I want to jump into some other topics, but just take a moment to, to welcome anyone who’s listening live on LinkedIn. It’s a fascinating conversation with Shaab Salami who’s at Sporting Goods as a VP of product and design, 10 plus years at Nike. And also a very esteemed career track before that you went to business school as well, Shaab?
SHAHAB:
I did, yeah.
ARMAN:
And where, where, where’d you go to business school?
SHAHAB:
Wharton.
ARMAN:
At Wharton. Okay. A Colombian Wharton guy, double Ivys. You still playing soccer, by the way?
SHAHAB:
I did. I had our first match this for the fall season on Sunday.
ARMAN:
Awesome. This past day. Awesome. I, I, I, yeah, I want to get into to some of that, but again, anyone who’s listening, you know, please feel free to share it forward. This is invaluable advice from a seasoned technology and marketing executive. I mean, it’s a lot of just cross-functional areas, but seems to be, as Shahab has been talking about this digital transformation and his role for 10 plus years across two of the, the top firms top companies in the sports, sporting goods industry. So we’ll go on hopefully, I mean, definitely I’ll, I’ll, I’ll make sure we, we, we cap it, you know, before the top of the hour. But just to shift a little bit, some, some questions. First of all, what’d you think a little off the cuff about the movie Air? I mean, given your experience with Nike did, did you feel, and the executives and the people, you know, there, was it, did it feel like a good portrayal of, of the culture? Yeah, I mean, I think it
SHAHAB:
Was, you know, there’s there I I I, I, I’m blanking on the individual’s name. It was kind of a, a seasoned Nike alum who as the movie was coming out and viewing, he was actually on LinkedIn, like posting, here’s what was real versus what was not. And so it was a nice little flow of that. And I think there was, if I had, if I had to in reading that, some of which I knew mu much of which I didn’t I would say it’s like the story is probably like 80% accurate. And there’s, you know, 20% Hollywood, which I think is probably expected. I don’t think it was, you know, presented as a, you know, a true depiction of exactly what happened. But I think generally, I think it is, right. And I think it really spoke to the spirit of the company, which is, you know, to take risks, to innovate, to look for new ways of innovating or innovation is, is as the, as the movie depicted, it wasn’t just about product, it was about product, it was about branding, it was around the business model behind it.
All the things were different pieces of that. So, you know, it was as much of a, you know, a movie about business as it was about sport or Michael Jordan. And I think that is really the spirit of most very successful companies is that, you know, it’s not about, I always, you know, when I talk to members of my team when we’re, we’re having a challenge and like, never look at a problem, look around the problem. Because if you can, when you look at a problem, you sometimes you think about, you know, it’s one plus one, it has to equal two, and you just keep on trying to make it equal two. And the real big problems are never that simple. The, the reality is you have to kind of look around the problem and really try to figure out like, well, what’s really the, what am I trying to solve and how can I solve it?
And I think you think about like using errors, an example, their problem that the statement was like, how do we become more relevant and build our basketball franchise? It focused on an individual. But even when you focus on an individual, there’s multiple dimensions on how you’d have to do that. Like, well, what is his and his family’s intrinsic value? What, how do you want to present to them? Is it just about product? Like, what’s the brand around that? How do we think differently? How do you give some space? How do you take risks, you know, to the, you know, the, the notion of the movie when they talked about we’re gonna pay the fines to the N B A and we’re going like, we’re gonna do something that others wouldn’t do. ’cause If you looked at a problem, you could say, well, how do we make the best looking shoe that has this much white on it?
If you looked around the problem, you’d say, well, wait a minute, we can do something and we’re gonna get fined. But think about the brand recognition we’ll get and how that is really in the spirit of who we are. And so I think when I try to employ that with myself and with others to be, don’t be so myopic on what it is as much as allow yourself the time and freedom to ask why not, and to give some space to go do that. And I think that’s where the real innovation happens. You know, it, you know, if not, we would all be still going and, you know, renting DVDs if it wasn’t for Netflix. Like, I mean, there’s a, you have to think differently to truly kind of, you know, bend the curve.
ARMAN:
Yeah, man, listen, that, that, that movie, and appreciate what you’re saying there, this is definitely a case that’s like its own little m b a program could be built in entrepreneurship and, and, and brand building and across the board, so many lessons from that. And by the way, anyone who’s listening, if you have any questions for Shaha at the end, I wanna leave a few minutes for a question or two. And, and speaking of that, now transitioning from that, I mean, it’s like you said, it’s more than just about the athlete because in this day and age, pay per tweet, and every athlete has their agents and management and price tag, right? So there’s a lot of, I don’t wanna say cheap ways, but like, yeah, every, there’s just a price level, right? Based on the eyeballs and the audience, and there’s all kinds of ways to do it.
So that was one lesson, seeing what happened. And maybe that’s like a once in a lifetime type of thing, but now let’s talk about soccer and, and Messi, right? And like him coming over. ’cause We, we could probably just have a whole conversation, me and you on soccer and that, but this so-called Messi effect. I mean, what are your, what are your thoughts from a, I mean, as a soccer fan, as I know you are, but even from a business standpoint, how he’s doing deals in ways that aren’t generally done, and maybe it’s a generational talent that can do command that kind of value? I
SHAHAB:
Mean, I think the, the deals, I mean, I think it really comes back to if Messi doesn’t perform on the field, none of it matters. So if he were to come and with all the fanfare, and he’s not fundamentally turning around the team and getting people, no one would care. It’d be kind of a, it’d be a curiosity that we’d be an asterisk. And companies like Apple and Adidas and others, like, why did we do that? It’s really, so it starts with him. And I’d say like, that’s true of most things. Like the essence of who he is is in his talent and obviously his work. And that everything around him is what exemplifies that. So it’s not just the, the idea that he’s not only an amazing player, but he’s an amazing teammate. And I think that goes a few ways. It’s not only that his amazing teammate, but his style is so revolutionary that it makes people think differently about the game.
The whole, you know, the notion that everyone talks a lot about is like, you know, the, the Messi walk. Like he’s just, he’s barely moving. But when he does, but he is constantly examining this idea that people are playing many times against themselves in a game or against a history of a game. He’s playing against everyone in the moment is a valuation of how people are, are in the moment is a completely different way of thinking about, you know, soccer or mini sports than, right. So like, then you start getting into like the business side of it. I think it’s interesting, but I also feel like anyone could create that structure and saying to your point of like, you know, going to the, you know, the old days of like, you know, whether you talk about Jordan or you talk about George Foreman in the grill, or 50 cent in Vitamin Water, this idea of, of Fed more recently and on running this idea of like, my brand is important, but I bring more than just my name.
I want to be associated with it. And if I’m associated with it, I want to be part of the upside of that experience. You know, Federer left Nike four years ago, a bit more than that, signed a deal with on running, took 3% equity of on, on Goes public, his three percent’s worth 300 million that happened in three years, right? And like, that’s the idea of, he’s like, I am more than that, right? Nike wasn’t gonna give him 3% of Nike, which is a whole different ballgame. But my point of it is like, this notion of integrating more thoughtfully into the experience, I think is really an interesting way, particularly when, you know, you have that clout and that ability, right? Right. This is like the, so like the LeBron effect in basketball where he is like, he’s more than an athlete, he’s an icon. He wants to project of who he is and show that he’s can do more than just play basketball.
He wants to demonstrate what he can do in other environments and how he, his brand is who he was. And you think about someone like LeBron who was so conscious of that when he was 18 coming out on the cover, sports Illustrated, you know, the, the chosen one and through such a long career has managed that so thoughtfully. I think those are the things that are really interesting. When we look back on them, they seem so obvious, but you think about in his career of LeBron’s career or many other athletes who come up and we could, you know, talk about many in soccer who at a very young age, people were thought they were gonna be the one. I mean, we all may, the soccer fans, we remember Freddie Adu was gonna be the next coming for us soccer. And you think about how his career was so mismanaged, and now he’s moved in the wrong environments and part of it’s his play, but also the environment which he’s in, led to a very disappointing journey for him.
Well, at least in soccer, I don’t, I don’t know Freddy’s life, but anything about, you know, we, the, you know, Ronaldo going to Saudi Messi coming to the US and Bape staying in Europe. Like, they’re all kind of trying to think like what makes the best sense for them. A lot of it is around, I think, you know, like it’s easy to, again, in retrospect to think like who’s winning in that, but it’s also the re what they also talk about winning, you know, mess. He talks about his family, he talks about like, you know, Miami being much better for that environment. We know the next, you know, decade of soccer globally, the US is gonna play a huge role in that with Concor calf with World Cup, you know, this elevation of the women’s game in the us you know, now we have, you know, dedicated the, you know, the KC current up in Kansas City is building a first only women’s only stadium for soccer.
You know, that’s, you think about when we were playing this idea that we’re gonna, there’s gonna be a league for women professional sport for soccer, and then the teams were gonna create dedicated stadiums for that would be fanciful. And today, and I happen, I’m good friends with the owners of the KC current and you know, speaking to them, they’re doing it not just as much. Like they love the sport and they wanna promote the sport. They believe in the future of the game as an investment as much as anything else. They’re not doing it just philanthropically. They see the same opportunity of that. So, you know, the, the current Bay Area team is owned by sixth Street, so another colleague and friend of mine who owns that same idea, like they’re investing because they see the future of the game. And so if you’re Messi, now’s the time to come to the us. There’s such upside for soccer in in the us and I think he sees that, you know, in his third chapter or what you know about his career, what a great way to demonstrate, you know, he doesn’t need to prove his skills to anyone else. Okay. Now show he can, you know, transform a country around the game.
ARMAN:
Yeah, no, well, well said. And it’s, yeah, it’s interesting all the analogies you brought up and there’s hundreds more, and those are all great case studies and, and I think coming from you and where you sit you know, I think people should be really listening you know, closely to that. And, and just an interesting juxtaposition, obviously with Air and Jordan, it was like before the guy was proven and it was like taking a bet, you know, the, a bit of a gamble, whereas with Messi, it’s, it’s a different kind of risk like you said, but it’s obviously he’s a proven entity, but what he’s doing and the impact it’s having in the early days obviously it’d be great if Miami makes the makes the playoffs and we’ll see, obviously knock on Woody stays healthy, but I was in Bogota Columbia a month ago for a conference, and I did, hadn’t thought about it till I was out there because on all the televisions, I mean, they have their local league, but they were watching, and the locals in there in latam. It’s like we talk about soccer in the US and the us but it’s like, because Messi’s playing now, they actually are paying attention to the m l s for the first time. And there’s obviously a lot of Latin players already in the m l s very good players from the other countries in Argentina as well. But up now with Messian, it gives them even more reason to watch people were wearing pink shirts and the jerseys. So it’s like this effect is like a multi continental effect. Do you think it’s gonna actually elevate the level of play for US soccer at kind of a youth and, and yeah.
SHAHAB:
Professional level? I think everything and yeah, and I’m, I mean, I, I’m sure there’s others who better students of the, the, the game of soccer going through the us but what I would suggest is, you know, soccer’s still the number one participation sport amongst youth athletes. Like, and that’s been the case for many years. Like, it’s not a new phenomenon. The challenge has always been, most of them, or many of them are good athletes, they just happen to play soccer. They end up choosing other sports because they’re inspired by other athletes. They’re inspired by what they see on TV or whatever else. And I think what we’re seeing now is an ecosystem in the US where that young athlete, that six year old, that 10 year old is starting to see a hu both the level increase as well as the opportunities for them increase, whether that’s domestically, internationally.
And it’s fascinating. I was in Seattle a couple weeks ago and I was with my family there and my, you know, three young nieces and we went to go see UDub women’s team was playing Yale. The level of collegiate soccer I’m just using at the female level was so much better. And candidly, you know, going back to like when we played like felt competitive to what, like our style like 25 years ago. And you think about that, and so like now you have like my, I have nieces in high school and junior high and, and younger, they look at that and now they’re inspired by what the game can be and the bar is so much higher. And like, same idea, like when we now watch collegiate soccer or even the US has gotten, you know, the US 94 team, you know, couldn’t get a goal in against today’s team.
I mean, there’s not even a, there’s not even a comparison. And so I think that’s what’s really interesting is you’re seeing the level really rise and you’ve seen the opportunity also rise. And when you see those things come together, you know, when, you know, practice meets opportunity, like that’s when the magic happens. And so that’s why I’m optimistic of the journey. Will the US ever, you know, m l s ever compete with Premier League or like Liga or League One? Maybe not. I mean, it’s tough to, at some levels that’s, you know, generational. Generational. You have to, you have to get Messies to come here when they’re 13, not come here when they’re 36, right? But it’s, it’s gonna be a competitive league. The one thing the US always, you know, is willing to do is put money at the situation. So like, you know, we’re, we’re afforded a very stable, you know, economy and, and a lot of dollars to support the game. And just like I was mention alluding to before of like, investors are starting to put their money into the game, that’s a really clear sign of the fact that they see value. So I’m optimistic you know, I, you know, it would be great to one day see the US actually be competitive that our World Cup truly competitive and I’m, you know, it’s fun. You know, like I said, I, 20 years ago, I would never think about watching US soccer, you know, today it’s like, you know, every game’s interesting. So
ARMAN:
Yeah. Now, now you gotta have that Apple plus subscription. Exactly.
SHAHAB:
Well, yeah, I know every, every time I watch, I feel I put another few cents into Messi’s Pocket.
ARMAN:
Yeah, yeah. And like you said about the level of play, I mean, just look at some of the guys we played with who now have kids, right? Like the young Balsamo, the young Sullivans, I mean, Balsam’s moved to lacrosse, but they’re, you know, the, these great athletes we played with. Now their kids at the next generation are like you just said, another notch, another level above. Just look at what, you know, Brendan’s boys are doing, and talk about possibly some of the future of the sport for that young talent, those 13 year olds staying in this country or staying connected to, to the program, whether it’s national team and or maybe some club ball. I mean, maybe for the chance to play with or against guys like mess.
SHAHAB:
I mean, you think about, you know, in, you know, last World Cup, like when the US put their, you know, 11 on the field in the first team, I think 10 of them played in Europe, right? So like this idea, like even like the US game obviously is also getting better because players are going and getting great experience and coming back either national team or maybe a bit later in m l s. So I think this fluidity that we’re starting to see, I think is also helping the global game because we also know like different leagues have different styles, they have different players. Like you’re starting to, it’s not so, you know, I remember when like Landon Donovan went overseas and one of the reasons he came back, I think to la he said he was homesick and like he wanted an environment and like, that’s great for him.
It’s not a criticism, but this idea of like, it used to feel very foreign Yeah. In all walks of life to like, I’m gonna go overseas, I’m gonna be in a place. I don’t know, I’m, but now with this idea of how our, many of our cultures have started to come together in many ways, and this idea, it’s not very, it’s not hard to kind of see yourself in multiple environments, I think has also allowed young athletes that luxury of thinking about how I can now expand my reach and not feel so pressured that that doesn’t put, didn’t challenge my personal goals with my professional goals. Right? And I think that’s an interesting dynamic as well that we’re seeing. And that’s, you know, we’re getting into like whole other dimension of like how athletes are getting paid and, and the flexibility have, and you know, we could spend an hour talking about n i l deal deals and how like that’s changing the game and right at a younger level and giving people more options and you know, where they play and how they play and how they promote themselves. And so it’s a, you know, it’s a fun time to be in sports. You know, we could talk about sports gambling. Yeah. We talked about Aaron Rogers, Achilles. I mean, we,
ARMAN:
We can go in a lot of directions. I want to, I want to have you back on, I know you guys got a busy schedule, but actually a couple things. One is, that’s one of the questions I saw a couple questions streaming in and I’m save it for the end, but since you mentioned N I l I’ll just throw it in now. Any advice you’d give, like potential, again, going back to partners, vendors, or just even those young athletes, like for this, like utilizing n i l athletes in their marketing?
SHAHAB:
I, yeah, I, I mean, I think, and again, I would be wrong for me to give advice to any person individually, but I w if I were to give like, some general advice is like, you know, realize every athlete is a brand as soon as early as they start playing, like you are a brand, whether you have an N I L deal, whether you don’t, how you, the style you play, how you promote yourself on the field, how you promote yourself in your community, all those things really matter. And so when we think about, and again, using LeBron as the example of an easy one, but his thoughtfulness about his brand at every moment, how he was gonna be perceived, what partnerships he was going to sign, a lot of it is very, it’s very curated and thought because it wasn’t about such and such is gonna give me X amount and I could do y it was about how am I thinking about the long game?
And for really the great athletes that’s so, so critical because as we know, we, you know, we’re a fickle community. We love hate our athletes just as quickly, you know, we, we put them on pedestals and we knock ’em down as fast as they, we, we, we put them up. And so that association of who you partner with is really important because now as we know, like n i l is, it’s a, it’s the Wild West rules change every year. Who, what’s really true, like what can you sign up for all those things you have to stay very on top of and be very thoughtful about that and also appreciate, like, once you do put your name on something, now you’re associated with that brand in some way and you think about your longer term career, how should you be thinking about that? Is that a brand you want to be thoughtful of?
Is that a place that makes sense for you? Because ultimately, and I think that’s where I’ll go back to partnership is so important. When you find the right partner, all the other stuff, candidly becomes easy finding the wrong partner and you’ll spend your time. I, you know, I’ve done a lot of m and a and business development. I always tell, I always remind myself, and I always like tell others when I’m doing deals is pick your partner, don’t pick your deal. You know, we spend so much time negotiating contracts and like clauses and out clauses and all these things, and I’m always like, that is, I understand it, we pay lawyers a lot of money to do that, but to me it’s a lot of wasted energy because if you pick the right partner, you will find your journey through those tough times. They will be with you, they will renegotiate, they will work with you if you find the wrong partner, it doesn’t matter how tight your deal is, they will find a way around it.
They will, could be a thorn on your side, they will counter sue. They, you’ll have this a horrible journey. And so you think about n i l you’re essentially entering into all these micro partnerships. So think about not only the brand and the dollars that you may achieve, but really think about is this someone that you trust? Is it an environment that makes sense for you? Is this a place you think you could potentially grow? And oh, by the way, if you outgrow them, will they understand that and appreciate that? Like, hey, we’re a point in time partnership. You’re now a different kind of beast that I think is as important as, you know. And again, it’s easy for me to say, I don’t know what everyone’s situation is. You know, I, it’s, you know, your, your environment may be different that forces you into different places. But that would be my kind of general thinking of n i l. Yeah,
ARMAN:
No, that’s, it’s, it’s really good to hear from you on that. And so I, I take it has a a, an active and proactive strategy in that space. It’s not like a let’s watch and see or is it how <crosstalk> Well, I think,
SHAHAB:
I mean, we’re aware of, I mean obviously, I mean you have to know, I mean Dick, you know, and Nike are very different. We think about, you know, Nike has a lot of n I l you know, athletes, but Nike’s business model is very much a is an athlete driven business model, we have, you know, athletes as our ambassadors and sport, but it’s a different model. So it’s not as relevant in a environment as maybe in a Nike environment where, you know, the thousands of people are working on finding the next great athlete and how early can you partner with ’em and what does that deal look like is is very different in the, in that world than let’s say.
ARMAN:
Gotcha, gotcha. Great. Well my last topic for you, and this could be brief is and we’ve talked about a lot of different names and athletes and I know as per your time at Nike, and I’m sure as well, you’ve come across and got to be at some of the best sporting events and meet and greet, and I’ve seen some of your pictures with the different athletes. Any, any one or two that you can share that were like, just either your experience or who you found to be just fascinating to meet or that was personally like touched you in some way?
SHAHAB:
I would say, and I, and I didn’t spend a lot of time with this athlete, but I’m, he’s by far my most inspired athlete of, you know, for me the last, you know, could be my like adult generation who would be Eliud Kipchoge, who you know the Kenyan runner who has, you know, on professionally has, is by far the, you know, most prolific marathoner our generation maybe of all time. You know, he has demonstrated inability, the only man to run sub two hours for a marathon, not on a professional course, but in a curated environment. We had worked with him on that journey and have been, Nike has been a huge supporter of Kipchoge for many years from early running to to where he is now more of an ambassador and he still competes. He’s competing in Berlin coming up.
I think what I’m, why I think he’s so inspiring is one, obviously his physical abilities are just so aspirational in terms of, not that any of us could do that, but just his ability, he talks about this idea that you really have no limits, like, and, and to test that theory. And so this idea that, you know, once upon a time we thought that, you know, no one could break the four hour, you know, mile mark or they would die or like women couldn’t run marathons. And these kind of ideas and his idea to constantly test that idea, two hour marathon was conceived as one of those ideas and his ability to say it’s possible, and he hopes in his lifetime it’ll actually be achievable by many. So that on one side is incredibly inspirational. His, the way he shows up to the community of running, you can think, like running sometimes can be a very individualized sport.
You don’t really think about it, particularly with marathoning. You can kind of think about it in terms of it’s one person versus a clock in many times in some athletes. But his concept of how he’s built really a collegiate environment of running both, you know, in his own, you know, home in his country of Kenya, but also how he’s become an ambassador to others and really thinking about it as a community, I think is incredibly inspiring. And he’s also one of the most humble human beings you would ever meet in terms of how he lives his life, how he prioritizes his family, how he realizes like you don’t really need much to be happy. You know, happiness really comes from inside. It really doesn’t come from anything else. For all those reasons, it’s he’s like at the top of my list of, of that, you know, I’m, I, you know, love a lot of other athletes for different reasons, but holistically it’d be Khashoggi.
ARMAN:
That’s amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that Shahab, and, and really thanks for taking the time. You know, we’re, we’re, we’re longtime friends and as I was joking in the post today, like the only way I can get get in your calendar is to do do a podcast with you. I know, I know how busy you are. Hopefully I’ll come down at some point. It’s, it’s great that you’re back in, back in Texas, man. How’s it feel to be back home or close to home?
SHAHAB:
It’s great. Yeah, I mean, I, it’s Austin’s a great town. You know, we’re, we’re coming off the summer heat, which is, you know, always the, the challenge of the Texas summers. But yeah, no, I mean, excited to be kind of central and, you know, close family and yeah, it’s a, it’s a good experience. So far.
ARMAN:
Good stuff, man. Well, next time you’re coming up to New York, let me know and otherwise maybe I’ll get down for a cowboy game. How, how about them cowboys, man, <laugh>. Yeah,
SHAHAB:
Yeah, yeah. I, yeah, yeah. You know, put, put the 40 nickel on on the Giants. Yeah. It was a good match. Yeah. Well, I’ll be, I’ll be in New York for the, the marathon in November, so. Cool. I look you
ARMAN:
Up. Alright man. Listen, thank you for your time. Appreciate it and have a great rest of the day.
SHAHAB:
All right, sounds good. Thanks everyone. Okay,
ARMAN:
Peace.
